Say you work in insurance at a party and honestly, it kills the conversation.

00:00:22: Welcome to a new episode of Love, Tech and the Future Of Insurance.

00:00:27: I make this podcast because i love this industry its complexity it's purpose And above all The people!

00:00:37: The ones who build it challenge It and sometimes walk away from it To build something completely off their own.

00:00:46: My guest today has done All three of them.

00:00:49: She started her career in innovation management at Arak.

00:00:54: She helped scale and insure tech WeFox as chief of staff, she served as CEO of Dentalo & Petolo the Zurich subsidiary for dental and pet insurance .She co-authored a book about this industry ,and is now founding her own brokerage Athena Protektoria!

00:01:23: Who gets it, who stays?

00:01:25: Why transformation is so hard and what happens to the human relationship at the heart of insurance when technology starts takeover.

00:01:35: Tamara welcome!

00:01:38: Thank you for having me.

00:01:39: I'm happy to be here.

00:01:41: The pleasure's all ours.

00:01:42: Tamara At the end of twenty-five You published a book in Germany together with Dr David Stechon who is COO and member of the executive team at Canada Life in Europe.

00:01:56: The book is called Willkommen in der Welt der Versicherung.

00:01:58: Welcome to the World of Insurance, And you open with a sentence that I think anyone Who has ever worked In this industry will recognize

00:02:07: immediately.".

00:02:09: I quote honestly mentioning the Industry i work in At A party.

00:02:14: Is the ultimate conversation killer?

00:02:17: I would even say if You add I work in insurance and consulting.

00:02:23: It's even more of a conversation killer because people start to look at their watches and say, oh jeez it is so late!

00:02:31: Yeah they just turn away like who else is here?

00:02:36: And now you wrote the book about all these people that get you excited.

00:02:40: So tell us how did your way into this industry fall in love with insurance?

00:02:49: For me, it started ridiculously early to be honest because insurance was how I saw adulting and being responsible.

00:03:00: With, i think, thirteen or fourteen everything that I wanted as an adult a real grown-up person.

00:03:07: And one of the markers for this is receiving letters in the mail.

00:03:12: So they looked at my dad's letter and he got insurance letters.

00:03:19: Yeah, me getting my own first insurance.

00:03:22: It was a retirement plan.

00:03:24: still have it.

00:03:26: I was so proud.

00:03:28: i later did student internship at the local public health insurance which is amazing.

00:03:37: The people there were So much into educating Me helping me understand the system Helping me yeah get a lay of the land.

00:03:48: and by chance, and by a recruiter who was pointing me in that direction I got into ARAC.

00:03:58: And... That was an amazing start!

00:04:01: I fell in love so easily because i think it's actually irritating if you're not falling in love with insurance.

00:04:08: You probably just haven't found the right corner yet.

00:04:12: It is everything industry.

00:04:14: It touches every development, it touches every stage of life.

00:04:20: Every expertise is needed and also from a philosophical point-of-view... ...it's deeply capitalistic and has so socialist areas.

00:04:31: You can find the corner of this industry to fall in love with.

00:04:36: you Can't find your home here And basically everyone is need.

00:04:41: I completely agree With all your statements But why do you think it is so difficult for somebody that has not had the opportunity to take a look inside, to see that?

00:04:54: It's hard for people.

00:04:56: To see from outside because its such an diverse industry meeting one part of it doesn't tell your whole story and also on other side personal experience.

00:05:08: Your first encounter with insurance isn't normally best day in life part of growing up, you kind of have to.

00:05:18: It's paperwork.

00:05:19: it is your first claim.

00:05:20: these are not the highlight situations.

00:05:23: right and also from a media perspective The good stories that end well they don't sell papers.

00:05:30: we read about scandals.

00:05:32: We read things going wrong crises And overall, this does not necessarily paint a really nice picture of us as an industry.

00:05:43: You have to get over that little bit.

00:05:47: also on the other side in an industry there is so much built-on understanding especially the regulatory environment and complexity experience.

00:06:01: it's highly valued.

00:06:03: rightfully new joiner, you start at the end of the food chain.

00:06:11: It's hard.

00:06:12: so yeah it is not a very fast love-it for sight situation.

00:06:18: with insurance its something to grow into.

00:06:21: I had some interesting discussions that people told me back then in the sixties and seventies They would have a time to join.

00:06:30: It would be an hour and half or something where the doors will open, then they'd close their doors once people were leaving again.

00:06:38: so it was really like a closed shop trying to reserve and keep secret sauce that you're working with also because they all protect us right?

00:06:51: You don't go out in public and talk about it, because its always sensitive.

00:06:54: It's always personal And you try to keep that particular place.

00:06:58: That also contributes a lot To why is so complicated from the outside.

00:07:04: get into the insights.

00:07:05: And lastly, if you look at investors and touch on that in your book as well which I think is fantastic because it explains very well how the entire handling of reserves can work to a certain extent with those reserves makes them so hard for them really see whether they are performing.

00:07:24: or am i just seeing something that has been resulting from the past gives me results expected but not produced because they have manufactured it.

00:07:35: And I think that makes so complicated out of different reasons to get an understanding where we are.

00:07:41: It doesn't play by the rules in any other industry, its not a service but also producing something or playing with categories.

00:07:58: you normally have to choose from the financial side.

00:08:01: Learning how to read a balance sheet is very irritating.

00:08:06: if you studied business and then join an industry, open up books... I do have questions!

00:08:14: Please?

00:08:15: What's this?

00:08:16: How does it work?

00:08:17: We earn money on both sides of our balance sheets.

00:08:21: we can be really successful and profitable with a combined ratio that looks like we're barely passing by, depending on the line you work in.

00:08:34: But you have to know that beforehand.

00:08:36: otherwise this is massively confusing.

00:08:39: but once you get a hang of it... ...you feel everything falls into

00:08:43: place.".

00:08:44: In your book you describe three types people who all love this industry just rarely at the same time and on the same way The sales heart one's individual services, simple and fast.

00:08:59: The risk manager heart plans on a century-long horizon and holds promises to policyholders up to one hundred percent And the tech heart sprints in two week cycles and would rather leave legacy systems completely alone.

00:09:15: which of these three hearts beat in your chest?

00:09:19: That is a hard question because I started out in operations I was brought up in the risk manager perspective, and that's still the blood pumping through my veins.

00:09:49: what we can do to make people feel safe, be safe, sleep well at night.

00:09:56: Have the feeling of oh I have control now!

00:09:59: I know it's going to happen if something happens and that happiness on a next level.

00:10:06: At the same time i show the behavioral patterns Of The Tech Heart.

00:10:11: just because If you lived long enough in the Berlin tech bubble You immerse just start to behave a bit.

00:10:19: Like, so I would say the heart definitely is risk manager.

00:10:24: that drive as sales hard and behavioral patterns are on tech side

00:10:31: very interesting.

00:10:32: i always thought we need to create freedom for the sales part be free at the bird while moment of risk is administered.

00:10:42: in managed we will benefit from having factory which is repetitive cheap to run and providing more services than the customers in that respect.

00:10:55: Which of these three hearts do you think industry listens most to?

00:10:59: And

00:10:59: why?".

00:11:01: In my personal perspective, I feel we're also listening very much to risk manager's heart – with good reason because at end-of-the-day this is value we provide.

00:11:13: but it isn't supposed a ranking because the whole system is set up to have that friction, to have a continuous fight between those three directions.

00:11:28: Because it actually makes us better and keeps us balanced.

00:11:32: We have enough stories in this industry of things going wrong.

00:11:38: not having the math to start with historically like that did pose some challenges.

00:11:44: I think this is why we take a risk manager quite seriously.

00:11:48: at some point it needs to work, It means end up being sustainable and payable but without the drive for sales We forget who do these why we are waking up Monday morning.

00:12:09: The single policy holder, the company that we enable to actually run on a global scale... ...the weird specialty risk is only possible because someone's backing it up!

00:12:25: That is highly individualized and sometimes spontaneous not all-time factory like.

00:12:31: but if you can balance except that the friction is built into this system, and it's supposed to make us better.

00:12:41: It's supposed keep our backs free because as a risk manager I need to be trusting other sides... ...to have their side in check.. ..and help me with input.

00:12:56: so i'm not just following my perspective

00:13:00: And it balances innovation and all the regulatory elements, right?

00:13:04: So to a certain extent.

00:13:07: Many people don't see that but there is continuous improvement even though it may not be revolutionary.

00:13:15: It's happening out of friction as you say You described so beautifully in this book.

00:13:21: for us The nicest piece if we work on those transformation elements when we see all three personalities coming together because that's a moment, sometimes is magic when it happens.

00:13:33: It can go really nice and wrong.

00:13:37: It depends on the perspective you enter such project in.

00:13:42: no matter which of those perspectives or hearts comes enclosed like yeah others just don't get it.

00:13:51: I know i'm right but with good reason.

00:13:56: they are always with good reason, but if I'm closing my eyes to what the other perspective can bring and The value this friction can't bring then it's dragging on a bit.

00:14:11: Then we need to have a coffee We need interpersonal exchange To lighten up because when we come together use those differences to enable each other and walk in the other shoe for a minute.

00:14:28: Then you feel like, in the upside down because suddenly you have laid back governance function who are oh as long.

00:14:36: it's what's meant in this regulation.

00:14:40: You have salespeople quoting paragraphs like there is no tomorrow, but you also have tech people who are like, This has to hold up for generations.

00:14:50: we need make sure and I love everything about it because they look at each other suddenly feel understood They feel seen And then can help bring the connection between those perspectives.

00:15:05: and this is where magic happens.

00:15:08: Sometimes it's not necessarily what supposed to be, I don't know if you have that experience about your transformation project but side projects personal preference things of friend groups.

00:15:18: This is the most amazing thing, this really enabling not only the official structure but the unofficial one that's driven by people wanting to make it better and just because its iterative.

00:15:33: I don't think thats a bad thing.

00:15:35: we're supposed be stable!

00:15:37: Thats what were incentivized for, we are managing risk.

00:15:41: we are supposed to keep the world economy safe.

00:15:43: This is not necessarily always a test and learn situation, move fast and break things.

00:15:49: it's really nice if you build a consumer app If your stabilizing economies probably don't break it.

00:15:56: Thank You!

00:15:57: And some of these relations then hold up for many years even longer than marriages or other friendships.

00:16:03: Oh yeah this industry is amazing because its big friend group sometimes Not neccessarily friends but more like village or sports club.

00:16:11: You have different areas at different trading times, but that the end of today you're in same club and you will go to same events and meet with people all the time.

00:16:22: It's really great because consistency enables a bit calmness also Because you can actually foresee what is happening.

00:16:34: So we plan differently And I think it sometimes big things that this industry can lift, but we're very used of keeping it on the down low and not really acknowledging.

00:16:48: The power and ability will have some times

00:16:51: I think something which is illustrated also beautifully in your book.

00:16:56: The driver for these three different types is, of course strongly related to the DNA of the company.

00:17:02: Whether you are publicly listed as a big player that has investor story shareholder requirements to meet would drive other things than a reinsurer or broker where you have sub-functions in your ecosystem.

00:17:18: I remember very well, we pitched a few years back for something at WeFox.

00:17:22: It was an SAP transformation program and interestingly enough they were not interested in any of our references because there were all insurance and they did not categorize themselves as insurers.

00:17:34: that made it frustrating and interesting to me At the same time... ...we didn't win the pitch but i learned so much going through this process Because at the end.. ..I think we were lacking international appeal diversification on resources in the other European areas that you wanted to work and I understood this is something that i need to change.

00:17:58: For me it was extremely interesting to go through this process but, You always have to readjust these three characters.

00:18:05: I

00:18:08: mean, i just had to laugh because so often if I wanted to have service providers my first question truly was.

00:18:15: Have you worked with insurance before?

00:18:17: So this really wasn't an exception!

00:18:20: Because it's even so hard to explain at all.

00:18:23: two new joiners and then half-service providers come in that haven't work with insurance Before And they are confused.

00:18:29: It's hard because there is a very interesting distinction between... ...I am not allowed to do that cannot do that and we should not be doing.

00:18:40: These are really different discussions to be had from the outside, you don't necessarily get why I can answer sometimes in paragraphs how our project is done or why it's necessary for fresh take on things.

00:18:58: just balance.

00:19:02: You need a very strong base of people with the knowledge, people with their experience.

00:19:08: This is why it's so valued in this industry and people introduce themselves with oh I've worked in the industry since twenty years!

00:19:16: This is rightful bragging...this is really amazing because you collected that much experience.

00:19:23: of course You bring a different type of understanding Of those structures.

00:19:28: but at the same time we need to enable Those twenty percent outside perspectives to get on board quickly, enable them to give their input in a constructive manner without just running into walls all the time.

00:19:45: Just tell them beforehand where they are and do not create walls that truly aren't any.

00:19:52: I think we're often times also used-to behavior.

00:19:56: We feel very comfortable with specific behaviors because it worked so far And trying a new approach is not a devaluation of the old approach.

00:20:08: I think that's very valuable point in trying to understand balance between three hearts, but also the balance between the Old and New.

00:20:19: We should make sure we acknowledge... ...and often times only think about appreciation for the experienced part.

00:20:32: Yeah, the cliche old white man.

00:20:34: We need them.

00:20:35: there are amazing.

00:20:37: they built this but we also need weird inspired start-up ease.

00:20:43: They should listen to.

00:20:46: yeah that cliche mostly just mostly.

00:20:50: so.

00:20:50: you've done The technology part.

00:20:52: You have done the operation as part innovation part is well and you know the insurance inside out.

00:20:59: And yet you chose now to step out of these large structures and build something completely on your own.

00:21:07: A Greek goddess, a brokerage that describes itself as CEO office for insurance personal independent and built an operational excellence rather than classic sales.

00:21:19: so why not?

00:21:22: I guess you can only stick around amazing salespeople.

00:21:29: I have the luck of amazing mentors, amazing people that can model this after.

00:21:35: That's a really nice thing about The Startup Worlds.

00:21:38: it is joined by people with great experience who want to change things and give their input And they were inspiring me too much.

00:21:54: the back office with being on the abstract strategic part.

00:21:59: Although I love it very, very much going out to actually be with clients but have those consultations also a form of happiness i should be able to bottle.

00:22:14: this is a great experience and im so thankful because make all those stories come to life, that those mentors and role models taught me.

00:22:29: And can combine the perspective from a startup at TechWorld with very traditional approach of brokerage as one taking care of you representing just like in olden days or A lot of them are still doing it, especially in commercial insurance where I'm your representative.

00:22:53: Even having underwriting claims capabilities because i am an expert at my niche.

00:22:58: joining that craft is a responsibility which also had to learn a bit.

00:23:06: You moved on from being part and successful bands into now your solo record?

00:23:12: Yeah

00:23:13: You call it now the CEO office for insurance,

00:23:16: but

00:23:17: what does that actually mean in practice?

00:23:19: Tell us a little bit about.

00:23:20: What makes it so unique and special?

00:23:23: Yeah just like I said It's supposed to be a combination of the roots off where The system with brokerage comes from.

00:23:32: Yeah, actually translating it into the life of the customer.

00:23:35: Because in my world and my nice insurance bubble if I tell you i want to be like the traditional commercial brokerages You have a reference point Of someone who's deeply embedded In The life of their clients was really representing them.

00:23:52: Who is taking care To find coverage not products.

00:23:56: But If I go to Clients They don't Have that Reference Point.

00:24:02: My target audience is more on the entrepreneurial, freelance and manager side of life.

00:24:08: I wanted to have a reference point that works for them And For you being the CEO of your life.

00:24:16: You need a back office?

00:24:17: You need someone to take care but not to push you into something But more To translate Your strategy, your vision Into needed action and prepare That like in decision memos and stuff.

00:24:33: This is the service that I want to provide a bit of translation, very traditional well-established values how brokerages are run into reference points and environments for specific target audience in modern environment.

00:24:53: So your clients are risk takers per se based on the target audience you have?

00:24:59: How do you make that work?

00:25:00: Because potentially insurance is not the first thing they have on their mind.

00:25:05: I told in the beginning of our conversation, last episode was with Julen and he basically took his rowing boat across The Atlantic after seven miles had no insurance at all.

00:25:15: This a risk taker.

00:25:16: if your customers are entrepreneurs or people who really drive their own matters in their own hands, how do you get them to move into something so traditional and potentially old-fashioned for them like an insurance?

00:25:29: Also defend them.

00:25:30: I mean the difference between very extreme sports people and entrepreneurs is less than one might assume... You're right with that.

00:25:39: Entrepreneurs and managers are also responsibility carriers.

00:25:44: they're very much used to assess the risk that are taking and do that on a very conscious basis.

00:25:54: So funnily enough, part of my clients who actually has built businesses or is running their own business were deeper into topic than most others.

00:26:07: not because they have much time but no matter if you're A manager in a big company or you are building your own, You're used to that line of thought.

00:26:22: I am taking on risk?

00:26:24: Is that risk okay for me to carry alone?

00:26:28: Do i need specialists?

00:26:29: do i need team around these decisions you make daily Me preparing decision for you.

00:26:34: outsource potential risks is just another management decision.

00:26:40: It fits into your everyday life if I frame it

00:26:43: accordingly.".

00:27:07: and their small business or their managerial role.

00:27:11: As a boutique player, what can you do in this particular case then different to the established players?

00:27:18: I mean...I can be fast!

00:27:22: That's the thing.

00:27:23: starting from scratch has really up-and down sides.

00:27:26: there are established players with really great foundations but those foundations they're hard to change.

00:27:34: if they want to adapt something try something new They really have to go through a whole transformation and change process.

00:27:41: As smaller player, I can be more nimble.

00:27:46: if i want to change something...I'm wearing all the hats!

00:27:49: It's just these two hands.

00:27:50: they can decide to do something different tomorrow which is amazing.

00:28:04: that gives me the freedom to stay agile and innovate, and really respond to my client's needs in a very personal way.

00:28:13: And I think it makes a difference especially for clients who are not necessarily into self-service or into that very abstract rationalization like, rather have a partner who is like, okay let's have coffee.

00:28:35: Tell me about your life and I will help you to make you understand the options and decisions that are able-to take.

00:28:45: The trusted advisor takes you into their target so entrepreneurial.

00:28:52: it is accepted at this level when going in those discussions.

00:28:58: That what you deliver there which of course very special thing

00:29:02: with my experience in the startup world, with my experiences now as a founder myself.

00:29:08: We just suffer this same way.

00:29:10: I know what it's like to be manager of whole bunch teams.

00:29:16: It is specific type energy that takes no matter how happy makes you.

00:29:20: its really nice to see and understand.

00:29:23: oh yeah i know what your going through.

00:29:26: let me make easier for

00:29:29: yo.

00:29:31: it is important for them to have that personal connection.

00:29:35: This is potentially less of a question, but I thought that would love to explore with you.

00:29:39: in the insurance industry we always believe when an client faces real crisis and spoke about them house fire or serious illness even death off loved one only human being will be able deal with this in direct communication.

00:30:01: If we automate that routine, the narrative goes.

00:30:04: Some of the researchers really show there is a response to AI-driven bots in our days... ...that can create a lot of empathy and substitute personal behavior with human and respect.

00:30:22: Do you think this is something...?

00:30:25: That is possible or potentially something that will be something we have to face in the future.

00:30:31: What are your thoughts about this?

00:30:32: You've dealt with claims yourself, right.

00:30:34: so what are you thoughts on this?

00:30:36: I find it funny that We sometimes step outside into our client base and suddenly forget everything that makes us amazing inside.

00:30:46: This industry has a lot of experience in managing diversity and different takes on things.

00:30:53: But our customers are often seen as this one thing like, Are customers open to AI bots being on the phone?

00:31:05: Some of them.

00:31:06: there are really different niches and types and situations And we can adapt to that.

00:31:12: it's allowed to be diverse.

00:31:15: I guess It is less either or situation It's more like, yeah of course this is going to happen.

00:31:21: The question is where?

00:31:23: Where is it most appropriate?

00:31:25: Where do the specific client basis accept that or even want in which situation?

00:31:33: Is This The Best Way To Handle Things For This Specific Type Of Claim Of Policy Holder?

00:31:41: Because I think its not necessarily the traditional demographic markers we have used before.

00:31:48: it's more behavioral patterns and environment.

00:31:54: It is often reference points that we as an insurance service provider not necessarily have access to, We have to guess sometimes but thats fine!

00:32:06: We can also use AI for that.

00:32:07: they are great at seeing patterns And we can iterate towards that As long as we stay with the principle of giving people safety when it's needed, safety when its promised.

00:32:23: What that safety looks like?

00:32:25: This is a contract we can negotiate and whatever my negotiation partner on the other side prefers but that can be quite individualistic.

00:32:36: One of the benefits of AI is eliminating The divide that we have had That always required you to use A tool in order To participate In technology.

00:32:45: Now that You Can talk technically would listen.

00:32:48: And sometimes even listens better than some human people that take the things they hear and are biased to a certain extent or want to help immediately without really trying to unwrap the entire problem, it could be in that respect a game changer once is stable and providing service at reasonable

00:33:11: manner.".

00:33:12: Absolutely!

00:33:12: Just like you said most of this is in my head if I feel Someone is judging me if I feel someone is ascribing something to my behavior.

00:33:23: I would like to speak to a machine, please?

00:33:25: That does not do that to

00:33:27: me.".

00:33:28: And this is fine!

00:33:29: That's the personal preference and it's amazing if we can open up our systems in a way that makes it accessible for people to choose what works for them because you don't have training to press on the voice button and start speaking, that feels very natural to us.

00:33:48: And this is amazing!

00:33:49: This is inclusivity – life?

00:33:51: That's great!

00:33:52: On the other side we have to be realistic.

00:33:54: it's a pattern recognition system just because you tend to humanize or give names as if they could actually understand what comes next.

00:34:11: This is far from understanding.

00:34:13: So being realistic of our expectations, leading a person who's really not up to talking to another person because they feel so embarrassed through claims notification can be fine because these are steps to follow right?

00:34:28: The machine knows what answer to look for and what words to look forward.

00:34:32: this as the pattern recognition but recognizing someone has been in car crash and starts calling their insurance because the shock does not enable them to have a priority strike.

00:34:48: Recognize that people on the phone, for example car insurance sometimes are even explicitly trained on this or they have experience built up so they know.

00:35:00: Tamada we talked about the industry's past is present in some uncomfortable questions.

00:35:08: What has this industry taught you the most?

00:35:11: Referencing from before, it's that diversity and managing diversity beyond the LinkedIn PR speak.

00:35:21: And beyond all of the outward I'm picturing myself as because natural and accepting ways we have, even though it's incentivized to have a bit of friction.

00:35:36: But the fights.

00:35:37: if you are a bit distanced... It's fun!

00:35:40: To be honest We should all have a little more fun with that.

00:35:43: but this is how you manage diversity.

00:35:45: This is How You Manage Friction and Differences.

00:35:49: We don't really acknowledge how special That makes us as an industry have these circumstances, to balance the circumstances and continue very value-driven work in a system that is not necessarily designed for everyone running in the same direction.

00:36:11: Sometimes it's hard because especially middle managers upper managers new managers are not equipped with advice from their universities or even books or podcasts how to manage this specific environment.

00:36:27: Normally, the recommendation goes you should try to not have silos.

00:36:31: Try to have a common language and then go into

00:36:35: insurance."

00:36:35: And we're like no!

00:36:36: We are running on this.

00:36:38: it's a requirement.

00:36:40: so I think actually our uniquely equipped give-out advice is that we need more insurance managers writing management books because they've been in the weeds.

00:36:55: They've managed and navigated to really hard part of being incentivized in three different directions, not tearing yourself apart.

00:37:04: And your team, department or company?

00:37:09: We should pat ourselves on the back sometimes because I have learned so many things about managing this divide from this industry.

00:37:18: Tamara, thank you so much and Thank You for writing this amazing book with your co-author.

00:37:23: I finally have something that i can hand to my wife To tell her what i do the entire day because it's So much from The inside And It covers so many things That are deeply rooted in This industry In such a simple way Which i think is the most complex thing to Do to take A very very complex topic and to prepare it in a way that is palatable, inaccessible for people who are on the outside.

00:37:50: It's a must-read of everyone working in this industry so I would strongly encourage them to translate it so we can make available more of the listeners currently only available in German but soon to be also available in English will be fantastic!

00:38:07: Thanks for joining.

00:38:08: Thank

00:38:13: you

00:38:15: so much!

00:38:16: I think today was a great representation of the love that is in this industry, we should take some with us and share it as we go into our jobs every day.